Understanding the Realities of Human Trafficking - Resilience & Relationships (R&R) - Stephanie Olson and Rebecca Saunders

In this conversation, Stephanie Olson and Rebecca Saunders delve into the myths surrounding human trafficking, discussing common misconceptions, the realities of traffickers and their victims, and the importance of community awareness and education. They emphasize the need to understand the complexities of trafficking, including the vulnerabilities that make individuals susceptible to exploitation, the dehumanization involved, and the challenges faced during recovery. The discussion also touches on the role of media and immigration in shaping perceptions of trafficking, advocating for a more informed and compassionate approach to prevention and support.

Takeaways

Human traffickers often target individuals they know.
Trafficking is not just about kidnapping; it involves manipulation and grooming.
Vulnerabilities can make anyone a target for trafficking.
Dehumanization is a key factor in trafficking and exploitation.
Rescue is not a simple solution; recovery is complex and ongoing.
Traffickers can be male or female, and often work in couples.
Media representations of trafficking can perpetuate myths.
Community education is crucial for prevention and awareness.
Trafficking can affect individuals of all ages and backgrounds.
Everyone has intrinsic value, regardless of their circumstances.

Sound Bites

"Human traffickers will target people."
"Traffickers go after the vulnerable."
"The reality is that trauma is ongoing."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Human Trafficking Myths
02:58 Debunking Common Myths
05:41 Understanding the Grooming Process
08:41 The Reality of Trafficking Targets
11:41 The Role of Traffickers
14:23 The Intrinsic Value of All Humans
17:23 The Complexity of Trafficking Dynamics
26:23 The Role of Children in Trafficking
27:10 Immigration and Human Trafficking
28:18 The Misconception of Border Control
30:17 Vulnerabilities of Immigrants
32:05 The Human Aspect of Trafficking
34:26 Dehumanization in Society
35:59 The Complexity of Rescue
38:12 Understanding Trauma in Survivors
39:59 The Reality of Recovery
42:12 Emotional Isolation and Trust Issues
44:23 Vulnerabilities and Scams
47:24 Protecting Ourselves and Our Communities
49:47 Education and Community Engagement

Transcript

Stephanie Olson (00:00.366)
Hello, hello, and welcome to RNR resilience in... Okay, no, I almost said the wrong one. Hello and welcome... Okay, let's start over. Hello and welcome to RNR resilience and relationships. I'm Stephanie Olson and I'm with...

Rebecca Saunders (00:07.525)
Thanks.

Rebecca Saunders (00:13.605)
Sorry.

Rebecca Saunders (00:22.639)
Rebecca Saunders.

Stephanie Olson (00:26.316)
Yay. All right. Well, Rebecca is leading this one. So we're going to talk about human trafficking, Ms. So Rebecca, let's go.

Rebecca Saunders (00:33.603)
Yes, I'm excited. So I always think it's fun to, well, I always think it's fun to learn new things. So hopefully you do too. But I was thinking today we could talk about common myths that we hear about human trafficking because there are a lot of them out there. This is one of those topics with so much misinformation and really widespread. So, okay, let's get into it. First step, like the best myths to talk about is that

Stephanie Olson (00:41.996)
Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (00:50.637)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (00:59.285)
Okay.

Rebecca Saunders (01:02.447)
Human traffickers will target people and they'll put zip ties on their car or like marks on the window or roses. Is there any truth to that?

Stephanie Olson (01:14.146)
Yeah, that myth is almost as good as the white van myth, right? That we always have to worry about the white van driving by and kidnapping all of us. So, yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (01:17.965)
Mmm.

Rebecca Saunders (01:25.433)
which let me say, my parents have a bunch of kids and they have a 12 passenger white van. And when I drive it and get out with all these children, I know that they're eyes on me.

Stephanie Olson (01:33.132)
Yes.

Stephanie Olson (01:40.174)
Absolutely. I am surprised you have not gotten arrested yet, actually. I know. So, and I have just a funny story about the white van actually for you. was educating a group of fifth graders at a school once, and one of the teachers and I started talking about the myth of the white van, only I didn't say myth. I was like, you know, white van.

Rebecca Saunders (01:41.603)
Bye.

Stephanie Olson (02:08.27)
And the teacher said, excuse me, I would just like to interrupt. Kids, it doesn't have to be a white van. It can be a blue van, a red van. I was like, oh my gosh, right. As long as it's a van, it is a kidnapping trap. So yeah, doesn't really matter what color. It is not real. Yes. I mean, could you get trafficked or could you get kidnapped in a white van? I suppose so. But

Rebecca Saunders (02:16.389)
As long as it's a van.

Rebecca Saunders (02:34.703)
Bye.

Stephanie Olson (02:38.124)
I don't know how that all anyway. So back. They can. Yes, they absolutely can. So yes, you're right. Now. So let's talk about your conversation about zip ties and roses. And yeah, that though. Can that happen? I'm sure it can. Does it happen? Hmm. No, not very often. And it goes back to that, that

Rebecca Saunders (02:38.275)
I do believe kidnappers can own other cars too, so.

Rebecca Saunders (02:51.94)
Yes.

Stephanie Olson (03:08.046)
mindset of kidnapping. I don't know, we've talked about this before, but where does that even come from? Like the zip ties and the roses.

Rebecca Saunders (03:18.373)
You know, I don't know. I'm not sure how it really started. Part of me thinks like maybe that happened to one person who was kidnapped and then it just spread like crazy. I know for me, like before I got into the counter human trafficking space, I didn't really know much about trafficking. If you go back far enough on my Facebook history, you'll see me sharing those posts. In my view, I'm like, hey, I'm helping other people and I didn't research it. But if it's online, it's true, right? So.

Stephanie Olson (03:31.32)
Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (03:42.444)
Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Olson (03:46.562)
Right.

Rebecca Saunders (03:48.589)
Of course, but I don't know how that started.

Stephanie Olson (03:49.826)
Yeah, gosh. I don't either. you know, it also goes back. So when I was in the working world in retail, so was in my 20s, I was working in retail, and there was always a conversation surrounding, be careful when you walk out to the parking lot at night, particularly.

and always look in the backseat and underneath your car because there would be people who would hide underneath your car to cut your Achilles tendon so that you couldn't run away. That is just freaky to think, yeah, that's bad, bad, bad, bad. Which, and again, may be true, right? And I've always said, could happen. And we should always be aware of our surroundings.

Rebecca Saunders (04:26.543)
I remember hearing that one. Yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (04:34.787)
could happen.

Stephanie Olson (04:43.266)
We should always be mindful of walking out to a car with other people, perhaps. And especially as a woman, we're always thinking about those kind of things. Those are always going to be on our mind. And yet, we know that's not how trafficking typically works. That can happen, but that's not how trafficking typically works.

Rebecca Saunders (05:07.983)
So it seems like maybe at the heart of that myth is another myth that traffickers usually kidnap their targets. And we're not seeing that. It can happen, but that's not the most likely thing to happen.

Stephanie Olson (05:16.332)
Right? Yeah. I... Mm-hmm. Mm-mm.

Stephanie Olson (05:24.994)
Yeah, in fact, most traffickers know, I'm sorry, most survivors, most people who are trafficked know they're traffickers before they're ever trafficked. And that's an important piece to remember that these people know the person trafficking. We know familial trafficking is huge. Moms and dads are the traffickers, grandmas and grandpas are the traffickers. So traffickers are people that are either

building relationships or have relationships. And even when you're talking about something like labor trafficking, and it is perhaps a much quicker process, you you're applying for a job, you go in, you get a job, you're still building a relationship with that person. It's not kidnapping.

Rebecca Saunders (06:14.029)
Right, and I think that's something that sometimes we forget, are there different levels of relationship and different levels of trust. And so, you know, I might be going in and applying for a job, but when I am, you know, doing that process, I am building a relationship with whoever that person is. It might not look the same as a friendship or a family relationship or a romantic relationship, but it is a relationship. You're getting to know them.

Stephanie Olson (06:21.122)
Yes.

Stephanie Olson (06:41.154)
Right, right, absolutely. And why do traffickers want? I mean, because we could all, I mean, this sounds, this is not what I mean to say, but we could all kidnap somebody, right? And drug them and make them do, not saying we should, not saying I do, but it's something, you know, we could all do, but traffickers.

Rebecca Saunders (06:54.217)
It's a noise again.

Stephanie Olson (07:09.24)
Don't do that very often. Why don't they just kidnap people and make them do what they want them to do?

Rebecca Saunders (07:13.103)
Well, honestly, it doesn't benefit them as well as taking someone through that grooming process would. And unfortunately, I mean, it's just, if I were to kidnap someone, they don't have any trust in me. But if I am, you know, building this false relationship with someone over a long period of time, I can manipulate them into doing things that they would not have otherwise done.

Stephanie Olson (07:28.867)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (07:33.421)
Right.

Stephanie Olson (07:39.98)
Yes. Yeah, exactly. And then they think they've chosen this. You know, I'm doing this to help my family. I'm doing this to support the person I love. I'm doing this because this is something I chose and for us, for both of us or whatever. And I think that's the key piece. That's what's so important to traffickers is that, you know, or people who want to do harm that they are

In fact, a senior in high school said this better than anyone I have ever heard say it, but if you are manipulated and the person is good at manipulating, do you know you're being manipulated? No, of course not. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that is, yeah, to your point, that's why traffickers do it the way they do it. It takes longer.

Rebecca Saunders (08:23.941)
Hmm, that's a good point. Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (08:38.378)
I mean, it's certainly you could do a grooming process from a data a year or more. But if you have enough people that you're doing that with, who cares how long it takes? You have them for life, so to speak.

Rebecca Saunders (08:49.273)
Right? And I think too, I mean, we know that social media comes into play and I think that could be an episode of its own, but those relationships aren't always built face to face either.

Stephanie Olson (08:59.179)
yeah.

Stephanie Olson (09:03.918)
They don't have to be. I had, there was a big controversy in a town not too far from me. Rebecca and I live in different states, but not too far from me. And this town did not want a, there was a whole racist component to it, but they didn't want a meat packing plant in their town because it brought in the non-desirable people.

And there was a gas station going in across from a school, which when that happened in our neighborhood, we were like, woohoo, Casey's, which if you don't know what Casey's is, it's like the gas station that has the ice cream and apparently they have gas too. So they also have pizza, all the things. But they, had a woman actually tell me that what traffickers do is they stand

Rebecca Saunders (09:50.469)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (10:02.718)
in gas stations or truck stops and just watch people walk by and then decide who they're going to kidnap and traffic. Well, okay, first of all, that's not what they do. They didn't even do that pre-social media. They still built relationships and you just had to be more creative and do it in person. But now, when you don't even have to leave your house,

in order to build a relationship with someone and start to groom them and to be able to, why would you stand in a gas station watching people go by? It's just that mindset up. It's not, it's a little time consuming. so recognizing what really happens so that we don't, we don't create, we're not looking for the wrong things. We really need to be looking for what really happens.

Rebecca Saunders (10:39.385)
just not very effective. Yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (10:57.861)
Well, and speaking of that, like, what about the targets of those traffickers? Because something that I hear a lot is that it's a girl.

Stephanie Olson (11:04.398)
Target. Are you so okay. Good point. I thought when you said Target, you were talking actually about the store Target, which is the subject of so many trafficking stories, right?

Rebecca Saunders (11:12.773)
Not this door.

Rebecca Saunders (11:20.133)
That is actually a whole myth in itself.

Stephanie Olson (11:24.914)
It is what I've had that I just had that ask like what okay, so what's the truth about trafficking and Target? And I always say, here's the reality of Target stores. They are evil. And here's what is bad about Target stores. When you walk into Target stores, there's this little subliminal message that says

Rebecca Saunders (11:52.195)
You never walk out with just what we came for.

Stephanie Olson (11:53.251)
I'm kidding. Of course, Target, I, you don't. I love Target. I can walk into Target with the intention of buying literally one thing and $300 later, I'm walking out of the store. yeah, Target is a whole myth in and of itself, but you weren't talking about Target stores. Go ahead.

Rebecca Saunders (12:04.133)
Dangerous.

Rebecca Saunders (12:11.173)
Yes, the targets of traffickers, although it is important to address target stores too. But the targets of traffickers, so those that are looking to traffic, know, generally when we talk about sex trafficking especially, we're thinking teen girls. And would you say that that's the majority?

Stephanie Olson (12:20.43)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Olson (12:28.308)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Stephanie Olson (12:34.498)
Well, that is how lifetime portrays it. good, good, bad lifetime movie will always have that. They have all the same storyline. no, yeah, I know. You love to hate them, right? Good lifetime movie, you love to hate. But, you know, I think that, again, there's a couple of myths in that because we know that that is not true.

Rebecca Saunders (12:35.983)
Thank you.

Rebecca Saunders (12:40.642)
Thank

Rebecca Saunders (12:45.325)
love them.

Stephanie Olson (13:03.948)
that we see boys trafficked almost equally depending on where you are, where your community is.

Rebecca Saunders (13:11.173)
And do you mean for labor trafficking or sex trafficking there?

Stephanie Olson (13:15.958)
Yeah, good question. Yeah, we know that even for sex trafficking, that some will say even up to 50 % males to female ratio. So there is definitely a myth there with just girls being trafficked. But I would also say that one of them is with teenage girls specifically,

is that mindset that traffickers only go after people who are that image of beauty that we think about. So maybe they're blonde, there's thin, they're pretty, whatever it is, that that is who traffickers go after. And we know that's not true. It's not about looks, it's about power and control.

Rebecca Saunders (14:08.953)
Yes, and that is so important to remember. mean, multiple times presenting in different places, I've heard, I'm not pretty enough to be trafficked. And first of all, I would say you are very pretty, but even regardless, that's not what they're looking for.

Stephanie Olson (14:17.484)
Yeah. Mm, yeah. That's a whole other issue, right? Right, right.

Yeah, no, no, no. you know, we've talked about that trafficking can happen with any age. And we know, unfortunately, that from infants to senior citizens, we have seen people trafficked for sex. And certainly labor trafficking happens among many ages as well. And so it is not about

certain look. In fact, there was a nursing home where one of the residents was selling the other residents to the staff for sex. I mean, that's insanity. But when you talk about stuff like that, it's so interesting because people will be like, ew, gross, senior citizens. Well, there is nothing more or less gross than

Rebecca Saunders (15:05.099)
my goodness.

Stephanie Olson (15:24.302)
Trafficking senior citizens versus young adults versus teens versus... It's all gross. It's all evil. It's all disgusting. And we have to remember that this is about human beings on both sides, actually.

Rebecca Saunders (15:38.095)
And I think it's so important to acknowledge that it does not matter your age. There's no instance when it's okay to treat another human being like that. And there is no human being deserving of that treatment either.

Stephanie Olson (15:44.664)
Right.

Stephanie Olson (15:49.144)
Never.

Stephanie Olson (15:53.538)
So let me ask you a question because that makes me think of something. You know, when you talk about human trafficking, you are talking about the dehumanization of a human being. Here's another topic for us for our podcast, how people are dehumanizing other people just on social media in comments, send in things like that. And so we have to remember, and I think about politicians,

which I would never want to be one. But we, my gosh, or actors, anybody in the media, all of a sudden they're a public figure. And we look at them differently. We no longer look at them as human beings. We look at them as somebody we can either lift up or tear down or make judgments. I mean, it's just, it's insane what we've done to public figures, whether politicians or

Rebecca Saunders (16:22.853)
even

Stephanie Olson (16:52.251)
actors or whatever, anybody.

Rebecca Saunders (16:55.873)
It's kind of heartbreaking when you stop and think about just how many different ways that we've done this in our society to different groups of people or individuals. And I think, you know, everything with politics, not that I wanted to get into a super political conversation, but you know, everything is so tense. And it's okay, well, if we have this belief on this certain topic differently, then I don't even consider you a person anymore. And there's just such a problem.

Stephanie Olson (17:01.699)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (17:05.153)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (17:12.958)
No, thank you.

Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (17:25.646)
And we are in the one industry that you would think would not be political, and yet people make even this topic political, which is horrific. No.

Rebecca Saunders (17:38.009)
And it shouldn't be. It really should

Because really, mean, at the end of the day, our message here is no human being deserves to be treated that way. And I think that's something that everyone can get behind. It's not a political statement. It's a fact.

Stephanie Olson (17:54.168)
bright.

Stephanie Olson (17:57.858)
would like to think so. I would like to think so. Yes. Yes. Go humans.

Rebecca Saunders (18:04.133)
Yes!

Rebecca Saunders (18:08.549)
Well, I'm talking about too, this gets uncomfortable, I know. So one of the things that we talk about when we present, just for all of you out there who may not have gotten to hear us, one of the things we talk about is that value, that every person has an unchangeable intrinsic value. And I mean every person. how do we kind of wrap our heads around that when we're talking about people who have done harm to other people?

Stephanie Olson (18:08.973)
Right.

Stephanie Olson (18:15.575)
Okay.

Stephanie Olson (18:24.995)
Mmm.

Yes, everybody.

Rebecca Saunders (18:39.397)
I mean, that might be a big thing in itself, but yes, I think that's something that we as people struggle with because we want things to be black or white. It's easier that way. And I think even with these myths, it kind of comes back to that, okay, I need a clear sign. So if that's not happening to me, then I am safe and I don't have to worry about it. I just think in general, we're looking for the black and the white.

Stephanie Olson (18:41.172)
Yeah, it's hard, right?

Stephanie Olson (18:50.318)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Olson (19:05.195)
Right.

That's a really good point. so two things to that topic. we had a student once when we were talking about, everybody has an intrinsic value that cannot be changed. And the student said, well, what about traffickers? Do they have an intrinsic value? And that's a tough question, right? But I mean, but it's an easy answer. The answer is yes. Yes, they do have an intrinsic value that can't be changed.

Now, what they have chosen to do, their behavior is not okay, I would call it evil, and it's wrong. And so you can go off path. Does that change your value, your worth, your human dignity? No. As a human being, no. And can we get back to the right path?

Absolutely. And that's the beauty of, I mean, redemption of being a human being, all of that stuff. But it is recognizing that, even even traffickers have an intrinsic value. Now, part of the reason that's really important is because so many people don't recognize their intrinsic value. Right. And so there's this mindset that if I've

In fact, survivors, people with lived experience, how many people are like, well, I don't have intrinsic value. I don't have worth because I did this, this. Yeah, something you can lose something you can. I did this, this, this, and this. So I can't have value. No, you can't lose it. Right. That is just a part of who you are. And so it doesn't matter what you've done. doesn't matter what anyone's done to you.

Rebecca Saunders (20:34.585)
Like it's something you can do.

Stephanie Olson (20:56.546)
you have intrinsic value that can't be changed. And I think that is so vital for all of us to understand. I just think that, again, that doesn't mean you can't go off track and you can't do the wrong thing. And there should be consequences for those things. But that, yes, doesn't change your value.

Rebecca Saunders (21:16.825)
Absolutely. my goodness, I don't remember how we got there, but I'm glad we got there.

Stephanie Olson (21:23.958)
too. And I was going to say something else too about that. Now I should have said, remind me to say this because now I can't remember what it was, but I do. That is so important. I am glad too. Yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (21:37.349)
Okay, so pulling us back to some myths here, and I'm glad you mentioned traffickers because this next myth is about traffickers. So when I talk to people, a lot of the time I will hear, know, we all have our mental picture of what a trafficker is and what that looks like. And I always hear male, adult male, and you know, depending on who I'm talking to, I might hear different races or different ages, but I always hear adult male. And I mean,

Stephanie Olson (21:47.317)
Mm, okay.

Stephanie Olson (21:54.446)
Mmm.

Stephanie Olson (21:59.371)
Yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (22:07.169)
Is there truth in that? What are we seeing with the traffickers themselves?

Stephanie Olson (22:07.928)
Yeah, for sure.

Stephanie Olson (22:14.222)
Yeah, that's a great one. Because if we're only looking for adult males, it's much easier. We know what direction to look for, right? But that isn't true. 52 % of trafficking recruiters are males. 42 % are females. And when we think about that, like when we think about males as a woman specifically, I can't speak for other

males, but as a woman specifically, if you and I were walking down a dark alley and a male started walking by, our initial response would be to tense up. or yes, exactly. But if a female walked by, we might have a different response. And so absolutely traffickers use females

Rebecca Saunders (22:54.607)
Yeah, I'm paying a little more attention.

Stephanie Olson (23:12.078)
are females because it does create a little bit more of that safety mindset. Now, for those of you math people, which I am not, but I do know this, that 52 and 42 do not equal 100. So what's the other 60 %? Or I'm sorry, 6%. See, that's how bad I am with math. The other 60%. No, what's the other 6 %? It's couples. And so when people work within couples,

Rebecca Saunders (23:20.677)
Thanks.

Rebecca Saunders (23:28.606)
I love you.

Stephanie Olson (23:40.992)
Again, it's a different mindset. And we do feel much more comfortable when there's a couple than when there is just, you know, an individual. And so those are those are definitely things that traffickers use to their advantage. But it does hit that myth completely that it's only males that are trafficking.

Rebecca Saunders (24:05.573)
One, it's interesting too to think about couples together because oftentimes I'll hear, well, the women who are trafficking others, they must have been forced into it. And what maybe sometimes, but not all the time. And whenever we think about couples together, it reminds me of something you said earlier, that these are people that, you know, most trafficked individuals knew before the exploitation occurred. So does this look like family friends?

Stephanie Olson (24:15.406)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Not all the time.

Stephanie Olson (24:32.951)
Yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (24:33.135)
that you're trusted together. Does this look like family members? know, just so many, so many situations where we would not have our guard up.

Stephanie Olson (24:43.586)
Right, right, exactly. which leads me to a really important point, we can continue to talk about this, but traffickers go after the vulnerable. And you said, you know, having your guard up, that is a vulnerability or not having your guard up is a vulnerability that a trafficker would use against us if we're not looking for it or if we think that can't happen here. That is a vulnerability right there.

Rebecca Saunders (25:11.491)
It is, it is. And so I'm curious, know, when we are talking about males and females, both involved in the act of trafficking, what does that look like? I mean, are they doing the same type of roles? Do they maybe have different responsibilities? What is that? How does that look?

Stephanie Olson (25:24.802)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Olson (25:31.244)
Mmm.

Yeah, you know, and I think it can look like a number of different ways, right? I think you can look at trafficking like a business, like sometimes there is a network of traffickers and it would look like just a corporation. You've got the people in the mailroom to the CEO. And so the same thing with trafficking. You can have the recruiter versus the head of the organization versus

the person who is, you know, whatever. could go that it's going to look like that. Or you could have an individual who is trafficking individuals. And so or, you know, I mean, I think there are a lot of different roles, but a lot of times we with trafficking specifically, there's a statistic that says, and I'll find where this is and put it up there. But that

the majority of women are used kind of on the front line so that if somebody, if they are caught, that's who's gonna be caught. And so even in the role of trafficking, there's things like sexism, you know, it's just, yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (26:53.387)
And that makes sense too, especially when we consider, like you said earlier, as a female, I'm more likely to trust a female. And so I don't know, with a lot of us having that mental image of traffickers are male, that they would be caught so easily, a female who's trafficking.

Stephanie Olson (27:01.986)
Yeah, right, right.

Stephanie Olson (27:11.266)
Yeah, right. You know, to that point, too, I think we would be remiss if we didn't mention children, that when we're talking males and females, we are also talking about children being traffickers. And again, they could be individuals who have been trafficked or not. But

There was a school where one of the students was trafficking and one of the teachers was the buyer. And so it's not just adults. And that's an important piece to remember.

Rebecca Saunders (27:51.043)
Yeah, that's something you definitely don't really hear talked about online or in the media of children that are traffickers.

Stephanie Olson (27:56.886)
Right? Yeah.

Right. Right.

Rebecca Saunders (28:02.981)
And okay, so speaking of media, that's something that's not really talked about in the media, but what I do not ever hear that sentence is a big thing. What I hear all the time in the media is about immigration. That's such a hot topic right now. And then we could probably spend a whole podcast episode covering it. And I think maybe we should. But you know,

Stephanie Olson (28:16.478)
it

Stephanie Olson (28:24.334)
yes.

Stephanie Olson (28:29.592)
Maybe we should. Yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (28:31.607)
I hear a lot of, well, because of increased immigration, there's increased trafficking, and maybe that there are more trafficked individuals that are immigrants or more traffickers that are immigrants. And so can you speak to that a little bit?

Stephanie Olson (28:45.582)
Mm. Yeah, that's a great light topic. Thanks for throwing that out there. No, isn't it? Isn't it interesting too? And again, I would say this is the one topic. Everything is politicalized. I hate that about things today because it seems like, you know, if this is political, this is political, this is political, none of it, it's not political. And this is a topic that should not be political. And yet,

Rebecca Saunders (28:47.717)
You're welcome.

Rebecca Saunders (29:07.205)
It's

Stephanie Olson (29:15.438)
Thanks to immigration, it is political. But again, the reality is there is this mindset that the reason we should not open our borders is because of human trafficking. That everybody who comes across the border is trafficking another human, and that is just not true.

We know that there is trafficking across the border, of course, right? Just like there is trafficking in our schools, just like there is trafficking. There's trafficking everywhere. And so people are going to take advantage of anything they can if they're trying to do harm. But when we focus on the border for human trafficking, the key is we miss what's happening in our

own backyards and our community. And we know that trafficking is happening in our schools every day, both public and private. We know that trafficking is happening in our coffee shops. know trafficking is happening. It is happening everywhere. And so to focus on the border is definitely something that we shouldn't do. Now, the

Rebecca Saunders (30:35.203)
You're right. It sounds like the kind of unstated second half of that assumption is if we can just close up our borders, then this will not be a problem in the United States. And that is so off.

Stephanie Olson (30:45.88)
Mmmmm

Good thought. Yes, that is absolutely not true. Yes. Okay. That's excellent. Now, here's the other thing I would say about immigration, and this is really important too, is that when you have individuals who have immigrated to the United States, whether legally or illegally,

they might not know the laws of the United States. And so because of that, traffickers can absolutely take advantage of that, especially when we're talking about labor. And we have very specific labor laws. But if you don't know those labor laws, you are not going to know that it is not OK to work under minimum wage, that it is not OK to work this many hours, or that children can't work

under a certain age and if they do work under a certain age that there are actually laws around that and all of that stuff. So traffickers can take advantage of that. But the other thing that's important to remember is that if you have an individual who is here, especially who is an undocumented person and they are afraid to be deported, they are also afraid to communicate with people.

who they don't trust. And so now, of course, somebody can take advantage of an individual and do harm. And who are they going to tell? Because they're certainly not going to go to law enforcement for fear of being deported. And so that's a vulnerability right there. And we need to look at all of those situations to make sure we're protecting individuals from people who are doing harm.

Rebecca Saunders (32:39.491)
Yes. you know, earlier we said human trafficking is a human problem. And I really do believe that regardless of your views on immigration, I know that we vary even within our organization on our views on this. And that's OK, because we don't all have to agree. But what we can agree on is that no person should be trafficked. We should not tolerate that in any degree.

Stephanie Olson (32:46.913)
It's a human problem.

Stephanie Olson (32:53.848)
Sure.

Right!

Yes.

Stephanie Olson (33:02.89)
Exactly. Exactly. You know, I appreciate you saying that because I think that is a really a very important thing when we are talking about politics as a whole. I always say that our organization is apolitical. And what I mean by that is not that we don't have opinions. We all have opinions within our organization.

However, I don't know. The only political party of anybody I know in our organization is because they have literally told me what that is. Otherwise, I have no idea politically where people stand on any given issue. And that is okay because regardless, we have a mission.

that we are trying to achieve. within that mission, we all can work together towards that regardless of what we believe politically. The other thing I will say is that we don't even, mean, it's not a conversation, right, that we talk about because to your, and even if it were, here's the other thing I would say. I like to think that even if it were,

a daily conversation in our organization, we would still respect each other as human beings because of the foundation of everybody has an intrinsic value that cannot be changed. So I like to believe that to be the case. But this is not a political issue, nor should it be ever. And it is. And can I say the human being thing you said, we are humans, this is a human problem and

Rebecca Saunders (34:31.781)
Absolutely.

Stephanie Olson (34:58.56)
I think that is so important because when we're talking about human trafficking, it is about the dehumanization of a human being. That's what we have to do in order to buy or sell somebody. have to dehumanize them, make them a product. yet, and this is another one we could talk about over and over again, but how we dehumanize individuals on social media consistently.

because we have a screen, we have the ability to say that somebody is whatever, because they're not in front of our face. And so we dehumanize all of these people, you know, that are famous or that are on our social media, whatever. And we've got to stop doing that.

Rebecca Saunders (35:45.581)
We do. It's just, it's not helpful for anyone. It only hurts and there's no reason. And I think that, yeah, I mean, that translates into so many areas. And, and with buyers too, I mean, there's dehumanization that goes on there to be able to buy another human being. There's just, we have to see people as people. And I truly believe if we, as you know, a world of people could see others.

Stephanie Olson (35:50.636)
No.

Stephanie Olson (35:57.773)
Right.

Stephanie Olson (36:01.624)
Hmm. Yeah.

Right.

Stephanie Olson (36:09.58)
Yes.

Rebecca Saunders (36:14.947)
As people with value, the majority of our problems would go away.

Stephanie Olson (36:20.462)
I couldn't agree more. Or if we could start treating people like animals, I think we'd almost be better off, I swear.

Rebecca Saunders (36:24.388)
Right?

Why do we treat animals better than people?

Stephanie Olson (36:32.184)
We did. That's a whole other podcast, too. my gosh. Yeah, I love animals. I do. But yes, we need to love human beings as well. We're just not as cute, I think is the we're just not. mean, it. Yeah. Yeah, baby babies are cute, but they grow up. So I think that's the problem. Yeah. OK, we digress.

Rebecca Saunders (36:45.157)
A little popping face. You can't, you really can't beat it.

Rebecca Saunders (36:56.389)
Yeah, we're good at talking and not always about what we're talking about, but that's okay. You know, I like to think for everyone listening, like if you've made it this far, it's because you like to be in this conversation with us, so thank you. I really like having you. I you, gold star. I have another myth that I think

Stephanie Olson (37:06.486)
rabbit, little rabbit trails that we take here and there.

Stephanie Olson (37:17.474)
That's right. Yes. Yay. Good job.

Rebecca Saunders (37:26.303)
you know, just thinking about the human experience and how it reacted things, there's, there's this misconception that if you're someone who's been in a trafficking situation, that the minute you're rescued, heavy on the air quotes, you know, you should be thankful and happy and everything's good and perfect and rainbows. And that's not it. That is not real life. And even that term rescued. mean, what do think of that term?

Stephanie Olson (37:50.434)
Yes! No.

Stephanie Olson (37:58.87)
Yeah, we don't even use that term as an organization because it implies something very final. It's kind of that savior mindset that we want to as human beings, like we want to be the savior and swoop in and save these people and pull them out of this meth. And hey, meth, said meth, but yes, that too, this mess. And if they were doing meth, that too, right?

Rebecca Saunders (38:26.5)
That too.

Stephanie Olson (38:28.62)
We just want to fix all this. the reality is that trauma that people experience in... And we talked about trauma in the last podcast, that complex trauma that trafficked individual experiences layers upon layers upon layers of trauma. And it's ongoing and it comes from different angles. And we have to remember that when...

you are in a family and just think about your family or your home, whatever that may be, whether that's good, whether that's unhealthy and bad, it doesn't matter if somebody comes in and just extracts you from that. And then here you go, you're welcome. That's traumatic. That is traumatic. And if this is what you know, and this is what

You don't necessarily want to be quote unquote rescued. And we have to remember that if a trafficker is very good at what they do or anybody who does harm, they're building false relationships, right? They're building, well, they're real relationships. They're just not good relationships. And they, there was a survivor.

of trafficking who said, you want to help a trafficked individual, you better be prepared to give them everything their trafficker is giving them and more. It is powerful. And it helps us remember that this person, this trafficker, is actually giving things to the survivor to not only, I mean, that we've talked about the force, fraud, and coercion piece and that manipulation.

Rebecca Saunders (39:56.101)
That's power.

Stephanie Olson (40:18.622)
And if I always say with the grooming process, the person who goes into the grooming process is never the same person who comes out. And I think a senior in high school said it best. I think I've never heard it said better. If someone is good at manipulating you, you don't know you're being manipulated. Period. And so we have to remember these these individuals who are being trafficked, whether

kids, whether teens, whether young adults, and you pull them from what they know, you better be prepared to not only help them in a trauma-informed way, but have a place for them to go because otherwise the likelihood of them going back is massive. And that's a real thing. these organists, yeah, no, please go.

Rebecca Saunders (41:10.533)
And on average, oh, I was going to say on average, I've heard too that like, it's an average of seven times that someone will leave and go back. But that doesn't really fit very well with that savior complex we've got going on in our heads sometimes because, I saved you. I put you to where you need to be. But yeah, that's not real life. Emotions are complicated and I think it stems from

Stephanie Olson (41:21.346)
Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (41:28.014)
mm-mm.

Right.

Stephanie Olson (41:37.07)
That's not.

Rebecca Saunders (41:39.033)
You know, obviously we want to help other people. I think in general, most people do. But we have a very hard time when emotions get complicated because, okay, I can see what's good for you. And so you need to be happy about that. But in reality, it's a loss. maybe, you know, maybe that was an awful relationship, right? If someone's exploiting you, that's an awful relationship. But it doesn't mean that there weren't moments of good in there, too.

Stephanie Olson (41:46.67)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Olson (41:58.03)
Right.

Stephanie Olson (42:06.114)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (42:10.466)
That's a great way to, I love that you just said that because people forget that piece. And, you know, there are, there are organizations that are quote unquote rescue organizations that really their job is to extract somebody out of human trafficking. That sounds great in our ill-formed ideas of what that could be, but

Unless that is happening, fact, people have said, people have called us and say, how do we rescue children? I want to help rescue children. How do I do that? And, you know, I start by saying that, first of all, that's not really a thing that anybody should be doing in that sense. But if you really want to be a part of that, join law enforcement. Get really trauma trained and understand what

needs to happen in a really safe environment for these individuals that are being pulled out of what they know, that it is traumatic and it is not something that is easy. And when you go in and just take people out, they aren't going to say, thank you.

Rebecca Saunders (43:27.557)
Yes. And especially when we're talking about familial trafficking. Like imagine this is the only thing you've ever known. And I remember, you know, I was a CASA for a few years, a court appointed special advocate. So I worked with kids in the foster care system and kind of advocated for them. And whenever I was doing that, one of the things that we were trained on was that, that, you know, when you are working with a child who has been pulled away from their family, like you said, it doesn't matter how badly they were treated in that home. doesn't, it doesn't matter.

Stephanie Olson (43:33.129)
my gosh.

Stephanie Olson (43:40.512)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Olson (43:50.584)
Yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (43:58.009)
They're experiencing loss, they're experiencing grief. And you're going to have to hold space for that grief.

Stephanie Olson (43:58.807)
Right.

Stephanie Olson (44:03.511)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (44:07.074)
Yeah. You know, when we train individuals in the foster care system, whether staff or whether parents and caregivers, one of the things that we remind them is these children love their parents. And regardless of how they are treated, regardless of what is going on and why they were pulled from the home and put in foster care, they love their parents.

And so it's very similar with trafficking in that, especially if it's familial trafficking and moms and dads or family members or the parents, they love these people. Or if it's not family and a relationship of some sort, same thing. And that is a really key thing to remember. Yeah. Good point.

Rebecca Saunders (44:56.463)
And part of that grooming process too is that isolation factor. And so I think a lot of times we mistakenly, when we think of trafficking, we think of like physical isolation, that you're locked in a room or, but that's not really what we're talking about here in most cases. It's more of that emotional isolation of they don't understand you like I understand you. You can't trust them, you can trust me. And when someone has fed that for so long, I mean, you believe it, you really do. And so.

Stephanie Olson (45:02.914)
Yes!

Stephanie Olson (45:08.888)
Right.

Stephanie Olson (45:12.76)
Uh-uh.

Stephanie Olson (45:16.13)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (45:20.108)
Right.

Rebecca Saunders (45:24.601)
When you're out in this environment that's completely different and scary, you don't know who you can talk to. You don't know who you can trust. In some cases, maybe the people that used to be close to you would not like to have a relationship anymore. there's just so many complicated factors there that we can't, it would be wrong to forget about that.

Stephanie Olson (45:25.507)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (45:33.4)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (45:41.484)
Mmm.

Stephanie Olson (45:49.186)
Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. And we talked about traffickers going after the vulnerable. Those vulnerabilities are powerful, and they are not all weaknesses, right? We all have vulnerabilities. And if you think about your own vulnerabilities, whatever those may be, and some of us, it may be emotional, some of it could be physical, some of it could be mental. There's so many different things. But if you think about somebody taking advantage of you,

through that vulnerability, how much easier it is to do. And then that connection or that pull is that much stronger. And so I think, yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (46:29.677)
And I'm glad you mentioned that because we all do have our own vulnerabilities. And again, that goes back to this is not happening to someone over there. We all have the potential to be targeted by someone who wants to do us harm. And what they'll look for is those vulnerabilities, trafficker or someone who wants to inflict harm in another way. That those vulnerabilities are what they're working for. Yes.

Stephanie Olson (46:35.576)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (46:44.642)
Right? Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (46:52.472)
Well, look at the scams. Yeah, look at all the scams that go on. mean, people who are scammed are, and I hate hearing somebody say, I would never fall for that. It's just someday I want to talk about cults. Okay, we need to put that on our podcast list.

Rebecca Saunders (47:07.085)
yes.

Stephanie Olson (47:12.95)
because that grooming process is really similar. And so many people, would never fall for a cult. I would never fall for a scam. It's only the weak minded people that fall for that. No, it is, no one's like, you know what? Today I'm going to join a cult. You know, I mean, I'm going to get scammed today. think that's how, although,

Rebecca Saunders (47:22.467)
No one intends to.

Rebecca Saunders (47:28.397)
No.

Stephanie Olson (47:36.802)
Based on my day today, my day has been a full day. I'll tell you, I would not be surprised if I, I'm not even gonna say it, but scamming, hey scammers, today's the day. Like if you wanted to scam me, today was the day. No, I know. But then they're gonna hear this after this day. So then I'm safe. I'm safe. Yes. But we're all vulnerable. And I think that that's the key that

Rebecca Saunders (47:38.821)
Yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (47:46.021)
Yeah

no!

Rebecca Saunders (47:54.594)
yeah, we'll be fine. It'll be better by then.

Stephanie Olson (48:06.84)
where we could all, I mean, don't be arrogant enough to think that you could never fall for and then fill in the blank.

Rebecca Saunders (48:13.283)
And I think that's the first step to, you know, kind of protecting yourself and your community is to realize that. And it's an uncomfortable fact, but we need to acknowledge that, you know, everyone, everyone has vulnerabilities. And so what do do about that? And I feel like that's a, that's a show in itself too of, how, how do we, knowing that we have vulnerabilities, then protect ourselves and those around us. And part of that is through prevention education.

Stephanie Olson (48:22.092)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (48:42.649)
I mean, you have to know what you're fighting against.

Stephanie Olson (48:42.67)
Yeah.

Right.

Wow, that is good. Yeah. Nope. think, this has been really good. I love it. We're getting close to time, but, any like closing thoughts that you would have on this topic?

Rebecca Saunders (48:52.794)
Yeah

Rebecca Saunders (49:02.671)
Yeah, just, man, I think that there are so many, so many myths out there. And I would encourage everyone that, you know, if you hear it, it doesn't mean it's true. So let's look at those sources. Like, where are we getting that information? Because the more that we can get accurate information out into the world, the safer our communities will be. Because once we know

Stephanie Olson (49:18.286)
Mmm.

Stephanie Olson (49:23.244)
Right?

Rebecca Saunders (49:31.375)
how traffickers are actually operating, we can become their worst nightmare, right? We can say this is not happening in my community because we are aware of what's going on. We are alert. We know when to report.

Stephanie Olson (49:37.442)
Yes.

Stephanie Olson (49:45.862)
Mm. That's good. Yeah. this. and can I just say too that if you do, I mean, always check things out before you share them. I think that's really important. But if you do happen to share something and somebody debunks it, don't get defensive. I don't know why it is that every time somebody shares something and, you know,

Rebecca Saunders (50:05.753)
Right?

Stephanie Olson (50:15.146)
you go in and say, hey, just want to let you know, unless you're being a total jerk about it, but, know, hey, just want to let you know that's actually not factual. Here's what is. People tend to get really defensive about that. And I don't understand where that comes from. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, just take it for what it is. And if somebody gives you information that kind of debunks what you

Rebecca Saunders (50:28.005)
I don't either. I'm not sure.

Stephanie Olson (50:44.462)
know, thank them because that's a good thing. We want people to be looking out. It is good to learn. yeah, think there's been a good com... Yeah, please.

Rebecca Saunders (50:47.045)
Good to learn.

Rebecca Saunders (50:51.461)
Well, and with that note, if you're interested in learning more, this is what we do. So, you know, our website, setmefreeproject.net, you can get on there and we actually have a whole toolkit on our website where you can learn a little bit more. And please reach out with questions. We would love to answer your questions.

Stephanie Olson (50:59.106)
Yes. Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (51:08.386)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (51:15.66)
Not only can you learn more on our toolkit, but you can share. Like we have pre-made social media posts for you that you can take a post or take a, I guess it's a picture that you can, you know, add verbiage to, but you can share those. We have posters that you can download. There's a lot of videos that you can share. There's a lot of great resources to share and

Do you want to talk about our, this is dating us a little bit. So, but do you want to talk about our summer of safety?

Rebecca Saunders (51:49.783)
Yes, okay. So if you're listening in the future disregard, but if you're listening, 2025, yeah. Now we're doing a summer of safety campaign and really the whole heart behind this is what we just shared, right? We wanna make sure that in our communities and everywhere around us, we're able to spread this accurate information to help them stop trafficking before it starts.

Stephanie Olson (51:56.93)
But there's other campaigns. Yeah, look for the other ones.

Stephanie Olson (52:15.267)
Yeah.

Rebecca Saunders (52:17.221)
And that's really the heart of what we're doing. So if you want to help us in that, can, you'll put it in the notes or something where they can go. So you can go in like, but any contribution that you're able to make, whether it's a dollar or more, you know, and anything would help us bring that education into different communities. And so some of the places we go, you know, we work with partners who teach in schools.

Stephanie Olson (52:27.438)
Mm hmm. Yep. All the all the things, all the notes.

Rebecca Saunders (52:46.435)
And we actually teach as young as kindergarten, not talking about trafficking specifically, but talking about, you know, how can you determine if this is safe or not? And what do you do? And we go all the way up through adults. And so we're really trying to educate every facet of the community so that we can build that strong base of knowledge. And so you can click on our summer of safety campaign in the link below and be a part of that. And we would love that.

Stephanie Olson (53:11.192)
Yeah.

Stephanie Olson (53:18.002)
And we also do webinars. we would love, we speak in person. So if you want us to come speak at your event or conference, we love to do that. But we also do webinars. And so if you would like us to do a webinar for your community, your business, for your PTA group, we love to do things like that. Event, any of that. Yes. So get educated. I think it's really important. And with that,

Rebecca Saunders (53:35.875)
or that.

Rebecca Saunders (53:46.903)
So that's good. I don't think so. Thank you for being with us.

Stephanie Olson (53:47.714)
This was good! Anything else?

Okay, well then, yes, thank you. And you get some R &R and we will see you next time. Thanks for joining us.